Walton Pantland, you like changing the topic don't you? come lets have a debate

Walton said...

A couple of points:

Yes, I have been to Israel, in fact I lived there for a year and speak Hebrew - though it's getting rusty. I arrived in Israel more or less a Zionist, but quickly changed my mind when I realised Israel was just like apartheid South Africa. Quite frankly, I am fairly confident that I know what I am talking about.

But go ahead and call me anti-semitic if that's the only way you can confront my arguments. That is a typical Zionist tactic: discredit your critics by calling them anti-semitic, debate semantics (is it really occupation?), or point to how bad other states in the Middle East are.

As for Israel targetting civilians, this is widely reported in media such as The Guardian and BBC, though I am sure you will just denounce these as pro-Palestinian anti-semites. I am sure you are aware that Israel has also murdered a number of peace activists, such as Rachel Corrie.

I didn't leave South Africa because I was 'scared of the blacks', in fact I joined the ANC in 1992 and I have been fighting for broad-based Black empowerment ever since.

You say:

"I am under the impression that Israel captured Jerusalem, West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights fair and square so where is the occupation? It is Israel's property, and in my eyes up to the government and referendums to do with it as they please, is this not right?"

Uh, no. I don't accept that conquest gives Israel a right to land in the Middle East, and neither does the UN, so saying Israel won the land 'fair and square' is pretty pointless. If I come and beat you up and take your house because I have a bigger gun than you, does it become my house because I won it 'fair and square'? If so, where do you live?

The fact that other states in the Middle East are as bad as Israel is not a justification of Israeli tyranny. Being an enemy of Israel doesn't make me an friend of Syria - I am an enemy of both, if you can understand the complexity of that nuance.

Quite frankly, I think we could do without Israeli arms, and Win XP.

The reason I compare Israel to apartheid has a lot to do with people like you - the kind of language you use is identical to that of pro-apartheid whites in the 1980s and early 1990s. You say "Israel has bent over backwards for the palestinians and the thanks in return are suicide attacks, home made rockets, road side bombs and the list goes on and on." That's exactly what white South Africans used to say about black people. They also used to point to the rest of Africa - the way you point to other Middle Eastern countries - as a reason for continuing apartheid.

And Its Almost Supernatural is another blog full of Zionist rubbish.

And by the way, if you are going to steal an entire post from my blog, please at least have the decency to link back to it.

June 11, 2007 6:15 PM

Mr Walton, I do not plagiarize, everything I use has its source if you actually had looked with your eyes and not what you sit on you would have seen above "here is my reply" the source of your article with the address, I take offence to your accusations, about me calling you an anti-semite as I never did and also saying that I stole your article.

Just because this discussion is not going your way does not mean you must get defensive and horrible.

you say that you "quickly changed your mind when you saw Israel was like apartheid South Africa", what do you mean by that, you cant just say something and then change the topic without maybe giving some examples.

"Uh, no. I don't accept that conquest gives Israel a right to land in the Middle East, and neither does the UN, so saying Israel won the land 'fair and square' is pretty pointless. If I come and beat you up and take your house because I have a bigger gun than you, does it become my house because I won it 'fair and square'? If so, where do you live? "

I wonder what history books you read? As Nasser said in 1967 "Arab Nations must come together to destroy the Jewish state" and they amassed over 100 000 troops in the sinai desert, more troops from Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and closed the straits of tiran, if that is not an act of war and seeing as the Israeli population comprised of about 2.5 million Jews most of them refugees from Europe did not want to see another holocaust, so when you say this was a conquest, I think you are talking absolute junk.

It is very funny your analogy, it means bugger all, Israel was about to be attacked and out of self defence they managed to gain the upper hand. I would think that Israel did not have the bigger guns as the USSR were just sending the arabs arms left right and centre.

In all the wars against Israel please inform me who started? I can assure you the last thing that Israel wants is war, all they want is peace and they try oh so hard but if you don't see that you never will.

as we see in the latest civil war (Which Israel probably started hey walton) they can't even keep agreements between themselves, they have gun battles in houses, hospitals, government buildings, at funerals, in the streets. How can you try make peace with someone else if you don't have internal peace?

Rachel Corrie, poor girl, but why you blaming Israel for it? her body was in pretty good shape if a D9 drives over you twice most of your body would be on the tracks, I know I have seen tracks after an encounter with hizbulla terrorists pointing RPG's at us -while I was stationed in lebanon- and we only drove over them once with Merkava Mark-IIIB.

try your excuses and try put the blame on Israel as many times as you want, but you always elude the fact about the innocent civilians killed by palestinian terrorists.

You make many allegations about me, which are all baseless, I am putting forward an argument and all you can say are things to try make me look like the bad guy, it was you that said no one ever wants to engage in a nice debate, but how do you want anyone to engage in a debate with you when you put words in their mouths.

Your views are so distorted, you say something but you never back it up. the way you write shows that YOU an not take criticism and think that your view is right and anyone who says otherwise are attacking you and you get horrible.

"I didn't leave South Africa because I was 'scared of the blacks', in fact I joined the ANC in 1992 and I have been fighting for broad-based Black empowerment ever since."

I never said you were "scared of blacks", I was proving a point about how you assume all your views, I see you are doing a wonderful job for the ANC, not. If you were such a good ANC activist, then why do you speak against the politicians who are your comrades?

"The fact that other states in the Middle East are as bad as Israel is not a justification of Israeli tyranny. Being an enemy of Israel doesn't make me an friend of Syria - I am an enemy of both, if you can understand the complexity of that nuance."

Excuse me, tyranny???? what are talking about? Israel is the only known democracy in the Middle East. Israel has never attacked any neighbour without being provoked and provoked time and time again. If you hate everyone how can you have an objective view, I do not understand that?

For you to say you base your opinion on comparing Apartheid to Israel because of people like me, that is very stupid because the amount I know about apartheid is so little I do not even try to justify it or the opposite, one thing I do know is to compare Israel to Apartheid is actually degrading the experience that a black person who really suffered during apartheid.

It would something like comparing what happened at the Virginia Tech to the Holocaust, baseless and horrible.

Please can I have some proof of blacks firing homemade projectiles into Cape Town from Gugs or khayelitsha or JHB from Soweto or kidnapping SANDF soldiers or blowing up buses.
There is one problem, Blacks were citizens of South Africa. Palestinians are not citizens of Israel and as I said before Israeli-Arabs have the same benefits as any ordinary Israeli citizen.

I do not see you comparing the lebanese government to apartheid? they are definitely doing a bit of ethnic cleansing, do you know that certain jobs in lebanon can not be given to a refugee? it is not only in lebanon but most arab countries, who have tyrants running the country.

Your comparisons are so far fetched that you forget about who is the real instigator to this crisis and the palestinians are just pawns in the chess game of the other arab nations.

It is funny how even after you were in Israel you can have these types of feelings, when did you go? My muslim doctor that I go to, said to me how he hated Israel and when he got there understood how much brainwashing he was subjected to by his imam. He was never searched once during his 1 month stay, he told me the countless walks along the Tel Aviv promenade and the hospitality that he was given, gave rise to him investigating a little bit more, and he came to the realisation that, Israel is not the enemy and actually it is a great place to live.

Another thing just because you disagree with something it does not mean it is rubbish, how can you say you want to debate when your answer is always, that's rubbish or saying something and not elaborating.

debate (source: http://www.answers.com/debate)

verb

To put forth reasons for or against something, often excitedly: argue, contend, dispute, moot. Seeaffirm/deny/argue, words.

noun

1. A discussion, often heated, in which a difference of opinion is expressed: altercation, argument, bicker, clash, contention, controversy, difficulty, disagreement, dispute, fight, polemic, quarrel, run-in, spat, squabble, tiff, word (used in plural), wrangle. Informal hassle, rhubarb, tangle. See conflict/cooperation.
2. The presentation of an argument or arguments: argumentation, disputation, forensics. See affirm/deny/argue, words.

No where do I see attacking a person is a debate, so once you can engage in a proper debate and put forward proper arguments and not mere hearsay then maybe we can have a nice debate.

I am willing you must stop attacking because that just shows that your arguments are just unfounded and mere baseless information .